NEXT TF2 CLASS UPDATE ANNOUNCED

Wave goodbye to yer head, wanker
April 2, 2009 - Greg Cherlin

It's been a couple of weeks since we posted, so we thought it'd be good to do some housekeeping. The next class pack will focus on the Sniper. It's actually shaping up to be the largest TF2 update yet, with multiple new maps and a bunch of gameplay tweaks. In addition, we've got another update in the works that should be done before the Sniper, and that one will include some new content for all classes.

The XBox 360 update is still being worked on. If you're wondering what's taking so long, since the content is "done" on the PC already, it's mostly been around fitting it all onto the XBox. The original version of TF2 in the Orange Box was very close to the XBox's memory limit, and all the additional TF2 content we've produced has pushed well beyond it. We've found a couple of nifty ways to get back a bunch of that memory, but it's turned out to be a lot of work, and that's what most of our time is being spent on. In the meantime, we're going to get a code update out to address the server cheating that's going on.

Like many other folks online, the TF2 team has been loving the Top 10 TF2 Plays of the Week videos that Push Gaming has been doing. If you haven't seen them yet, you can catch week 1, and week 2. We're hoping for a third one soon, but we can't really complain. If we were doing them ourselves, you'd probably see the third one sometime next year. While waiting though, you can check out the exploits of some of the Sniper's countrymen in the second frag video of Aussie clan Mad Dogz.


From http://www.tf2.com/post.php?id=2394

eeww wtf, now i imagine the sniper taking a pissing like calvin hobbes.

Well, he does that in the 'Meet the Sniper' video. I just hope they put a boomerang in there somewhere.

How bout a rifle that is a guaranteed 200 damage at full charge regardless of where it hits
IE no headshots

I dunno, Clooney; 200 is enough damage to drop ANY class except heavy (you wouldn't really need headshots at all, it'd be insta-kill almost all the way, and that'd be so broken lol), so if that was the case, then it would have to have an INSANE drawback of some sort, like...only being able to hold a single shell at a time that could only be refilled from a supply cabinet, not crates or dispensers. Alternatively, it could have a huge recoil that physically knocks the sniper down for a while (and may even do a bit of damage to him).

My suggestion would be, at least for the main weapon, this:

- 2x faster charge time
- does very little damage on any part of the body unless it's a fully-charged headshot
- headshots are only insta-kill if the gun is completely charged
- instead of a single-shot, have a 5-round clip that requires the sniper to remain stationary from the moment the last shot is fired and takes a great deal of time to reload once it's emptied
- if it's fired while not zoomed, does 50 damage to the player
- possibly see EITHER cloaked or disguised spies, but not both (so if they see a cloaked spy, he'll show up, but if he's wearing a disguise, it'll still look like whatever class the spy is disguised as, so the sniper may not be able to tell the difference unless he's PAYING ATTENTION)

My only other idea was a rifle with some sort of thermal scope with a large damage reduction, but that's getting too close to wallhack territory, really.

Edit: Thinking about Clooney's idea, here's another suggestion: have it do 200 damage, but be very inaccurate, like those rifles you see in the 'realism' games, where it's fucking impossible to hold the god damn thing steady unless you sit there for ten seconds without moving.

Ya 200 is a bit much, 150 is the normal amount for the rifle on a chest shot fully charged. x3 for headshots. Prehaps a boost in the charge time minus some damage

anyone think that the jarate is a bit off character with the sniper? what happened to proffesionals have standards?

It does seem a little unprofessional, but I think what bothers me more is that it doesn't ring 'true' to me in the TF2 world. Look at the past updates and what weapons each class has gotten:

Medic:
Kritz (pretty serious piece of tech)
Blutsauger (same deal)
Ubersaw (it's visually a LITTLE over the top with the syringe and blood stains, but it still feels natural fitting in with the TF2 quirky blood-and-tech world)

Pyro:
Backburner (still 'serious,' snake head fits in with Pyro's eccentricities)
Flare gun (serious, 'real' weapon)
Axetinguisher (a little more over the top and actually pretty menacing for the TF2 world-set, but still believable)

Scout (here's where the trouble starts):
Force-A-Nature (believable, though the name is pretty cheesy)
BONK drink (energy drink? in what is supposed to take place in the early to mid 1900s? lolwut)
The Sandman (believable AND funny; probably the least 'out there' of any of the unlockable melee weapons; feels natural)

For me, the BONK drink is when TF2 sort of strayed into 'jump the shark' territory. Yes, the game is cartoony as hell and not really meant to be taken seriously, but within the 'TF2 world' there's a sense of exaggerated realism: just about everything in the game makes sense as a caricature of mid-1900's culture, and the few things that don't (such as the engineer sentries) are far enough into the realm of 1950s sci-fi kitsch that they still fit 'naturally.' And for all it's Incredibles-like animation, TF2 is a pretty violent game and has an undercurrent of seriousness. Those aren't bananas coming out of the Heavy's minigun, and we wouldn't expect them to be. But the Sniper, who is, at least manner-wise, probably the most serious and professional of the team (except for maybe the Spy), flinging a jar of urine (or using it as a melee weapon) doesn't ring true to me at all. It's like the reverse equivalent of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck getting into a fight and then suddenly Bugs pulls out some friggin' piano wire and just strangles Daffy to death. It might still be funny, but it's completely out-of-place in the world those characters exist in.

Now, I love a good fart joke, but I was sort of relieved that Team Fortress 2's humor was funny without being crass or appealing to a five-year-old's sense of humor (which are basically the same thing). I'm really rather disappointed. It's Epic Movie-level toilet humor, it's juvenile, and it really doesn't belong in the game, in my opinion. It's not gonna stop me from playing, but it'll probably annoy me for a while.

However, there's an easy solution for VALVe: instead of a jar of piss, make it a jar of Vegemite. It's twice as disgusting as urine, and it has a whole hell of a lot more to do with Australia.

Now I don't know if any of you have had Vegemite before. I recommend everyone try it at least once; it's something a person should do before they die, like flip a police officer off while he's looking, or eating an entire plate full of wasabi and then a laxative. For those of you who are weak-ass punk-bitches, here's the reason: Vegemite is the most horrible-tasting excuse for a spread made from yeast extract to ever be invented. Vegemite is the taste of orphans being crushed under a steamroller. It is the taste in the mouth of someone who has been charged with the task of hand-pushing newborn puppies through a meat grinder ass-first. However, no one in Australia knows this, because they are, 100% of the time, mothershitting ass-backwards fuck drunk and everything tastes great when you're drunk, especially your best friend. We are talking about something that was going to be BANNED in the US because it tasted so fucking horrible, but then someone broke the story too early and we had to screw the idea.

If VALVe replaced the urine with Vegemite, it would be in-character with the Sniper and in-character with the game world itself. And it would still show them who is the boss.

I still wonder what the Jarate will actualy do. Stun? (nah its been done already) damage? (maby a bit from the glass but common) Melt an uber (interesting but thats a whole other topic) maby a beacon on spys(cool but impractical) Take away an enemys weapon? (possibly, gotta get that shit off ya)

Thanks for the rant siagon, way to expand on my point

Oh siagon we have been played, check the post date for the first one

Before they work on the sniper they really need to get rid of the sandman. Really.

Stuns don't belong in an FPS game, they belong in World of WarCrack.

George Clooney wrote:Oh siagon we have been played, check the post date for the first one

\

...son of a bitch.

LOL you guys thought that was real?

But even though its an april fools joke, I bet you they would actually put that in as a joke upgrade, like the heavy's sandwich.

And almost instakill bodyshots is way OP. Body shotting is easy as hell if you use low sens.

Runtime wrote:Before they work on the sniper they really need to get rid of the sandman. Really.

Stuns don't belong in an FPS game, they belong in World of WarCrack.

I actually don't have that much of a problem with the sandman in general, but I think they need to make some serious changes to how it works. Right now, it's most often used at point-blank range, and even though the stun time is fairly short and there's been a nerf to the damage a stunned player takes, it's more than enough time for the Scout to drop his target since the Scattergun/Force-A-Nature are the strongest primary weapons in the game (not counting the rocket launcher or the grenade launcher), unless the target is (A) ubercharged, (B) overhealed fully at the time of the stun, or (C) a heavy. Now, unless the Scout is using the Force-A-Nature, the shot timing seems to be three shots (occasionally two as there are still people out there NOT using fast weapon switch) before the stun wears off, so let's do some MOTHERFUCKING MATH.

First of all, the Ball stats:
Normal Hit (unaffected by range): 5
Critical Hit: 15

Now the Scattergun stats:

Point Blank: 85-105
Medium Range: 10-40
Long Range: 3-10
Critical Hit: 180
Rate of fire: .66 seconds

Now, let's rewrite those stats with the 50% damage nerf written in.

Point Blank: 42.5-52.5
Medium Range: 5-20
Long Range: 1.5-5
Critical Hit: 90
Rate of fire: .66 seconds (no change)

Hmm, that doesn't look so bad, does it? Well, let's fix this up nice. I couldn't find an exact timing chart on the Sandman and stun times, but in my experience (as I stated above), it takes about a 2 seconds for a point blank stun to wear off. This is NOT counting the time the camera zooms in and out of third person when stunned.

For shits and giggles, let's be nice to Scouts and say the stun only lasts 2 seconds. I'll leave that as is without taking the zoom time into account. I'm going to say he's also using fast weapon switch because if he isn't then it's the target's own damn fault he let himself be killed. I'll also use 'worst case scenario' for the Scout's damage and say he's barely in point blank range, so he's doing low-end damage. I'll also say he's super unlucky, so none of the shots he'll fire during our little experiment are crits, including the initial ball hit.

SO!

Stun time is 1.6 seconds.
.66 (three shots) x 3 = 1.98
42.5 x 3 = 127.5
127.5 + 5 (ball damage) = 132.5

132.5 damage in less time than it takes for the BASELINE stun to wear off. Well, now we have a situation where the Scout drops:

- Medics
- Spies
- Scouts
- Snipers
- Engineers

2/3rds of the entire class lineup. And that's with the least opportune factors for the Scout. Now, think about the other five we have standing:

- Soldiers
- Demomen
- Pyros
- Medics
- Heavy Weapons Guys

Both Soldiers and Demomen are rarely at full health; because of the splash-damage (and fall-damage) intensive playing style of those two classes, expecting to have a full tank of gas when running into a Scout is unrealistic (except in rare situations), not just for those five classes, but for really any class in the game. Thus, even if you're rolling with maybe 20 or so health off, you're in trouble. Applying the same math as before, let's look at health percentages when the Sandman wears off

Soldiers (200 - 132.5) = 67.5
Demoman (175 - 132.5) = 42.5
Pyro (175 - 132.5) = 42.5
Medic (150 - 132.5) = 17.5
Heavy Weapons Guy (300 - 132.5) = 167.5

Again, those are working with the 'worse case' for a Scout, when his weapon not only does no criticals, but does the lowest possible point-blank damage with each shot.

Well, looking at those numbers, things don't look TOO bad; 67 health on a Soldier isn't exactly a death sentence and 167 on a Heavy is still fairly comfortable. Demoman, Pyro and Medic don't get off so well; when health dips below the 50 mark, no matter what class, getting killed becomes incredibly easy.

However, as you'll see, all five of those classes are still in big trouble: with the stun gone, so is the 50% damage reduction, and the Scattergun is fully powered once more. Check back up a few miles and we see the point blank range on it is 85-105: more than enough to drop anyone but the Heavy in one shot.

BUT WAIT you say I CAN FIRE BACK NOW

Well, yes you can. But it won't do you a whole lot of good.

Stun time = 2.00 seconds
SG time to fire 3 shots = 1.98 seconds
SG rate of fire = .66 seconds
Time to kill the Scout before he fires a fourth time = .54 seconds (roughly half a second)

Now, I know we have fast reflexes. But this is not just about how fast you can move a mouse and sight up a target, this is about how fast whatever is coming out of your equipped weapon is moving. Here's where it gets really depressing.

Medic options
- Syringe Gun: you're dead. The Syringe Gun fires 10 needles a second, each of them doing 10-15 damage. Even in a situation where the scout was standing smack-dab in front of you and every single shot you fired hit him, it would still only do, at most, 75 damage; not enough to kill a Scout off before he shoots you. The only way to survive would be with all critical hits, which would actually kill the Scout quite quickly: 30 damage a hit, 5 shots in a .5 seconds (under ideal terms for the Medic) adds up to...150 damage. But when was the last time every single one of your needles hit a scout, mm?
- Blutsauger: you're still dead. 10 needles a second, restoring 3 health, for .5 seconds, gives you...15 more health, bringing you back to a strapping 32 health, which is not enough to save you.
- Medi-gun/Kritz: lolno.
- Ubersaw/Bonesaw: a crit will save you, anything else is pissing in the wind.

Soldier options
- rocket launcher: you're dead. The rocket moves too slowly, even at point blank range, to hit the Scout before he fires a fourth shot, which even at low-end damage will kill you. You COULD try rocket jumping away, but between the initial damage and the fall damage, you're coming down with probably 20-30 health, which is almost as good as dead anyway. Either way, the Scout wins. The other option is if you're in an enclosed space, you may try to take out the Scout with splash damage. Well, splash damage does between 27-89 damage, which isn't enough to take out anyone unless they're hurt too. Remember, the Scout is at the very edge of point blank range, so he'll probably take little damage from it while YOU blow yourself up.
- shotgun: you're probably still dead, unless you know EXACTLY where the Scout is, either because he's standing right in front of you or you see him in third person mode. However, you've gotta pray for a crit, because a point blank shotgun blast will NOT kill a Scout before he finishes you off.
- shovel: similar deal with the shotgun; you're dead unless you can pull a crit out of your ass, not to mention being able to target him and hit the left mouse button in under half a second.

Demoman
- grenade launcher: you're dead unless you can hit the Scout dead-on with a grenade, which will, if you're lucky, kill him. Anything less than an exact hit won't save you.
- stickybomb launcher: you're dead. The delay between firing the bomb and setting it off is too long for you to hit the Scout.
- bottle: similar deal as the shovel; a crit will save you, but you have to actually HIT the Scout with it, who will probably be moving again by the time you un-stun.

Pyro
- flamethrower: you're dead, though this is probably the best class to be if you get Sandman-ed; the flamethrower does 6.8 damage for every particle that hits its target, and does 153 damage in one second. Well, you don't HAVE one second to live, but your fire lives on; the flamethrower won't be enough to kill the Scout, but the burn damage most likely will be, especially on water-scarce maps like Turbine and Labor. Additionally, you'd be surprised by how many scouts will turn tail once they're set ablaze. I've been knocked out and brought three inches from Death's door, but once those flames go up, the Scout player panics and jumps away, missing his fourth shot (most of the time) or not taking it altogether. However, skilled Scout players seem to have learned a technique of outright jumping OVER the flames, so you may not hit them at all.
- shotgun: same deal as the soldier's shotgun; pray for a crit or pray for your ass.
- axe: similar to Soldier and Demoman; a crit is your only salvation. However, if you're wielding an Axetinguisher (AS YOU SHOULD BE IF YOU ARE PLAYING PYRO), you're good and screwed, as the damage reduction from the non-burning scout will do you no good at all.

The Heavy I won't bother with, as 160+ health is still plenty of reserve left to take out a Scout, and most Scouts tend to avoid Heavies in the first place unless there are stronger enemies to attract his attention.

So where does this whole diatribe leave us? It leaves us with a weapon where even in a worst-case scenario for the wielder, it becomes almost impossible to survive without quite a bit of luck unless you're a heavy, in which case you'll be headshotted before you can say 'BABIES!'

My suggestion would be to simply take away the Sandman's point-blank stun capabilities. It could still do some damage, but the stun would only kick in at medium and long ranges. I don't have a problem with the stun itself like Runtime does, but I do have an issue with how it's being used.

wow take it easy with the essays saigon.

Yeah, I guess, for pubs. But CEVO has it still banned, and for good reason:

1) The sandman can make ubers useless. That would slow down 6v6 tf2 even more, because ubers are the backbone of attacks.

2) Pro scouts have nasty aim: http://www.xfire.com/video/80657/

3) Teams coordinate. Stun them from afar, have your teammates finish off the player.

4) Hit the medic with the sandman and the other team is pretty much fucked.

5) Sandman + good sniper = owned

6) Heavies become even more useless than they already are with the sandman.

The sand man dosent stun at point blank, it just hits like the regular bat does. you have to be in the vicinity of 5 feet or more for the baseball to launch. Also you forgot the initial damage that the sandman does when it stuns you.

On a realated note: do you know how much damage the force-a-nature does at point blank? (I know its more than the scatter gun becuase it shoots more pelets than the scattergun, however it has a reduction on meduim and far range enemys.)

George Clooney wrote:The sand man dosent stun at point blank, it just hits like the regular bat does. you have to be in the vicinity of 5 feet or more for the baseball to launch. Also you forgot the initial damage that the sandman does when it stuns you.

On a realated note: do you know how much damage the force-a-nature does at point blank? (I know its more than the scatter gun becuase it shoots more pelets than the scattergun, however it has a reduction on meduim and far range enemys.)

Sandman definitely stuns at point blank range unless he is physically up against his target, THEN it functions as a normal bat. But it still functions with the ball-hitting mechanic in the majority of what most players would call 'point blank.' I wish I could give you the exact measurements, but I can't find any numbers to throw out.

Also, here's the stats on the Force-A-Nature. These numbers probably aren't EXACTLY right, but it's the closest community testing has come to determining sums:
Point Blank: 82-101
Medium Range: 10-39
Long Range: 3-10
Crit: 173

Also, TF2Wiki had this to say:

The Force-a-Nature, at first, appears to deal a lot less damage than the Scattergun, but in fact it deals only 4% less damage (0.8x damage per pellet times 1.2x amount of pellets is 0.96 times normal damage) spread over more pellets, to maximize the weapon's Knockback feature.

I'll go edit my initial mile-long post to take the ball damage into account.

Very informative. Submit this to valve

Lord no.

My math is probably off anyway, so all I'll end up doing is falling on my ass in front of Gabe Newell, which is really not high on my list of things to do.

I just thought that maybe the jar (if not an april fools joke) could be thrown at enemies to slow them down and make them green so they would be easier to target and hit

ALL HAIL GABE NEWELL

The Sniper has been a tricky class to update. In particular, designing an alternative to the Sniper Rifle has been a challenge. To understand why, we need to go back, way back, into the mists of time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and we started working on TF2. If it helps, you can listen to the Doctor Who Theme while you read.

In our multiplayer FPS games, players tend to die a lot. Death is one of the great feedback mechanisms we have in the game, helping you evaluate your own skill versus that of your opponents, and the viability of the tactics being employed by each of you. Being hopeless optimists, we'd like your deaths to be positive experiences. When we started working on TF2, 22 years ago, we decided to examine the things that affected how players felt about their deaths in TFC. Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they'd done something different. We found two factors that seemed to be important in light of that theory:



The first was whether or not you understand what killed you. If you don't know what killed you, that death is failing in providing you the feedback it's supposed to, and you won't be able to figure out what you could have done differently. Unsurprisingly, we saw that these deaths were highly aggravating to players, and in sufficient number caused new players to stop playing entirely. Trying to reduce the number of these deaths in TF2 was done through a variety of changes. It was one of the reasons why we chose to remove the hand-held grenades that each class had in TFC, which were one of the primary causes of these deaths. It was one of several goals that led to the creation of the freezecam.
The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.
In particular, the second seemed to be the root cause of the hatred of Snipers. You're often killed by them while you're engaged with an enemy in the foreground, and most of the time the Sniper is so far away it feels like you couldn't have dealt with him even if you didn't have enemies nearby. In fact, the Sniper's goal is to create that relationship: he specifically wants to fight enemies outside their engagement range, because that's his primary advantage.


Which brings us back to the Sniper Rifle unlockable. In an effort to reduce some of the aggravation that other players feel towards the Sniper, we chose the goal of designing an unlockable that encouraged the Sniper to get a little closer to his target. We want him to give up some of his primary advantage in return for something else, so that enemies he kills feel like they were engaged with them, and feel like they could have survived if they'd just managed to fight a little better

can you say elephant gun?

I havent seen any "pro" ppl use Force of shit(of nature) in pubs(tf2f).

SWATY can't say elephant gun